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TheDude
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 Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: Cat 4 Sandbaggers Zack Sober and Criston DeWan |
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Whats up with all the sandabaggers hagning out in Cat 4 till they're old enough the race masters? You boys have had your fun, now its time to take of the training wheels and move up with the big boys. You two are entirely too talented to spend another day/week/race/month/season riding Cat 4. Besides, when you upgrade not only do you get your ass kicked, you also get to start later in the day, you get to race longer (sometimes) and there are fewer crashes.
So what's holding you back other than fear? |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Cat 4 Sandbaggers Zack Sober and Criston DeWan |
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| TheDude wrote: | Whats up with all the sandabaggers hagning out in Cat 4 till they're old enough the race masters? You boys have had your fun, now its time to take of the training wheels and move up with the big boys. You two are entirely too talented to spend another day/week/race/month/season riding Cat 4. Besides, when you upgrade not only do you get your ass kicked, you also get to start later in the day, you get to race longer (sometimes) and there are fewer crashes.
So what's holding you back other than fear? |
LOL. Zack is on my team and both of these two are personal friends of mine. So in that case, i'll shed some light on this for ya....
Zack. He only raced half a season last year because of work and travel. He's easily one of the couple most talented guys in the 4s or the 3s and his stay in the 3s will prove that to be true. He got final points for upgrade at the EB road race earlier this year and then did 2 giveback races for our team as a favor - Apple and Cherry Pie. At Apple, he lead out our teammate for 4th place. However, he was so good on the day that he also won the race by literally riding everyone else off of his wheel from 800 meters out. At Cherry Pie, he pulled for about 35% of this race (even though there were 80 other racers) in order to help keep our guys up front. On the bell lap, he pulled me to the left hand corner and this allowed me to sprint for 2nd place. Job well done. So, as you can see, he "sandbagged" for exactly one weekend and two races. He is now upgraded and will be racing in a Cat3 field near you. Don't expect him to stay in the 3s long though.
Criston. He is not a sandbagger in any sense of the word. Go back and look at his placings. He has lots of 3rd and 4th places, but not the big wins which get you all the points. His placing at Mt.Tam hillclimb would have given him enough points last season, but that race doesn't count for points. So, he got his final points at the EB crit and then Cat'd up directly after. In other words, he wasn't a "sandbagger" for a single race.
Still stand by what you said? LOL. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with the sentiment of the original post, but looking at NCNCA.org, "recent upgrades" I think you picked a poor moment to publicly call someone to task!
ZACK SOBER 2/13/06 Cat 4 to Cat 3 Rd |
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diskzero
Cat 4
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Santa Clara, CA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: |
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I work with Criston and noticed that he was getting lots of top ten finishes. I am not sure if he knows or knew about the ten top ten finish provision to upggrading. It seems he had 12 top tens, with a lot of those being in the top five.
One thing I have noticed is that when you start to fixate on the "sandbaggers" you just end up setting yourself up for more grief. There is always going to be someone else coming up to take the place of the recently upgraded rider who is just as strong as stronger. If you find yourself to be a consistant top twenty finisher, but not top ten, you need to take a look at your approach to training and racing. This is totally the case for me. I am not super racer or anything at all. You either have to be happy with being able to compete with a group of fellow racers and deal with your current results or notch up your training a level or two. When you start winning and upgrade, your reward is even faster and harder racing in the 3's.
If TheDude is not racing against these guys, I am not sure what his post is all about. If you are a 3 I guess you are going to see these guys soon. |
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diskzero
Cat 4
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Santa Clara, CA
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Fear Itself
Cat 4
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 39
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| diskzero wrote: | I work with Criston and noticed that he was getting lots of top ten finishes. I am not sure if he knows or knew about the ten top ten finish provision to upggrading. It seems he had 12 top tens, with a lot of those being in the top five.
One thing I have noticed is that when you start to fixate on the "sandbaggers" you just end up setting yourself up for more grief. There is always going to be someone else coming up to take the place of the recently upgraded rider who is just as strong as stronger. If you find yourself to be a consistant top twenty finisher, but not top ten, you need to take a look at your approach to training and racing. This is totally the case for me. I am not super racer or anything at all. You either have to be happy with being able to compete with a group of fellow racers and deal with your current results or notch up your training a level or two. When you start winning and upgrade, your reward is even faster and harder racing in the 3's.
If TheDude is not racing against these guys, I am not sure what his post is all about. If you are a 3 I guess you are going to see these guys soon. |
You'd almost think that TheDude has to be a 4. Otherwise, why would some Cat3 out there waste his time following the path of some random Cat4s? A very odd waste of time to be sure. I agree with your sentiment about the strength of the field as well. There is always another uber rider moving up from the 5s into the 4s who is ready to wreck the field on a regular basis until they move to the 3s. It's always been my opinion that although some races may be a little faster or a little slower then others, that the relative strength of the field is usually about the same all year long. In that case, worrying about a single rider is a useless exercise.
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No single raindrop believes it is responsible for the flood. |
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Fear Itself
Cat 4
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 39
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| diskzero wrote: | I work with Criston and noticed that he was getting lots of top ten finishes. I am not sure if he knows or knew about the ten top ten finish provision to upggrading. It seems he had 12 top tens, with a lot of those being in the top five.
One thing I have noticed is that when you start to fixate on the "sandbaggers" you just end up setting yourself up for more grief. There is always going to be someone else coming up to take the place of the recently upgraded rider who is just as strong as stronger. If you find yourself to be a consistant top twenty finisher, but not top ten, you need to take a look at your approach to training and racing. This is totally the case for me. I am not super racer or anything at all. You either have to be happy with being able to compete with a group of fellow racers and deal with your current results or notch up your training a level or two. When you start winning and upgrade, your reward is even faster and harder racing in the 3's.
If TheDude is not racing against these guys, I am not sure what his post is all about. If you are a 3 I guess you are going to see these guys soon. |
I'm of the opinion that most people should not Cat up based on top10s instead of points. Sure, if you've been toiling in the 4s for over 2 years then it's fine, but otherwise stick around and see if you can learn to be a little more aggressive and take it to that next level in the 4s. If you can't do it in the 4s, then your chances are slim to none that you'll pull it off in the 3s. Plus, it's not like you're dominating the races and taking away valuable placings from other riders. JMHO.
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No single raindrop believes it is responsible for the flood. |
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peterpen
Cat 3
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Fear Itself wrote: |
I'm of the opinion that most people should not Cat up based on top10s instead of points. Sure, if you've been toiling in the 4s for over 2 years then it's fine, but otherwise stick around and see if you can learn to be a little more aggressive and take it to that next level in the 4s. If you can't do it in the 4s, then your chances are slim to none that you'll pull it off in the 3s. Plus, it's not like you're dominating the races and taking away valuable placings from other riders. JMHO. |
I'm with you on this - unless someone is on the podium every race, let them try and get some actual wins. There is a difference, and I actually appreciate having strong, experienced riders in the 4's - they make the racing more interesting and safer. Without them, the 4's are exactly like the 5's, except everybody's done 10 races - which doesn't mean a damn thing other than they're *probably* better at pinning their number on.
As for the OP, here's an idea - introduce yourself to Zack Sober or Christon DeWan and see what they're like. I met Zack at the Early Bird RR, and he explained to my teammate why he hadn't yet upgraded - nice guy, reasonable reasons. Using a message board to try and call someone out is pretty weak, IMO. |
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TheDude
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I just wanted to bust your chops. Both of Zack and Christon are great cyclists and cool dudes. I haven't raced too much with Zack but I've been in a few peletons with Christon. Zack - did I touch a nerve? Best of luck guys! |
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Yeap, Criston was killing the Cat 3's at the sausalito crit. today
Leonel |
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diskzero
Cat 4
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Santa Clara, CA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I agree with TheDude now! Christon, you sandbagger, winning your first race as a 3 on a tough course. Man.  |
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casey
Official
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 904
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: |
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One problem is that people don't understand about the upgrade system. Upgrades, and you race category, aren't based on how strong you are. Upgrades are based on riders demonstrating they have the pack skills and experience to be a safe rider at the next level. It doesn't matter that someone is twice as strong as everyone else at a given category. A strong rider shouldn't be upgraded till they have enough pack experience to be a safe rider in the higher level races. While it is very rare, a rider who has earned enough upgrade points can be denied an upgrade if there have been several complaints about the rider's bike handling.
A rider can't be considered a sandbagger until they have earned the Min number of upgrade points at the very least. Officially someone isn't a sandbagger until they reach the mandatory upgrade point level ( 30 points for a Cat 4 and 60 points for a Cat 3 in a 12 month period). When I notice a rider has reached the mandatory upgrade level they do get a mandatory upgrade. If a rider is close to earning a mandatory upgrade I will generally send a warning letter that the rider will be getting an upgrade even if they don't ask for it if they get more upgrade points. |
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quest
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:45 am Post subject: Upgrading |
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| Seems to me if a guy can win 3 races he obviously knows how to ride well enough in the pack |
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zvalmart
Cat 4
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Upgrading |
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| quest wrote: | | Seems to me if a guy can win 3 races he obviously knows how to ride well enough in the pack |
I'm sure this is almost always true, but you can have a rider that is extremely strong that just rides away from the field and wins on a solo flyer (see EBRR 35+ 4/5 group A).
Rick Martyn |
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casey
Official
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 904
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Upgrading |
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| quest wrote: | | Seems to me if a guy can win 3 races he obviously knows how to ride well enough in the pack |
Not if the 3 wins come from having ridden off the front of the field the whole time. Just because you are in a race doesn't mean you are getting pack experience if you are always off the front or off the back. |
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